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Humanist vielleicht und vielleicht liberal; Menschenfreund im Allgemeinen; reflektierend; angeborener Gerechtigkeitssinn

Sonntag, 15. Juli 2012

Beschneidungsurteil Köln

Radikale Meinungen gibt es (natürlich) in Israel nicht, wie der deutschen Öffentlichkeit so mancher Naivling glauben machen möchte. Es gibt in diesem Land keinen Rassismus, keinen Fremdenhass, keine Vorurteile oder verbissene ethnische Konflikte, keine fundamentalistischen Gedanken und v.a. keine Rachegefühle. Kurz, es gibt in Israel natürlich keine diffusen, wirren Gedanken und vollkommen weltfremde Egozentrik, die einem durchschnittlicher Mitteleuropäer das Grauen lehren. Nein: das perfekte Land frei allen Übels! (Natürlich gibt es viele gute Menschen dort, aber den Anschein zu verbreiten, es gäbe daneben keinerlei Radikalismus, verbiegt die Realität grob.)

Vor diesem Hintergrund überrascht dann die Rezeption des Urteils deutscher Gerichte zur Beschneidung in gewissen israelischen (und internationalen) Gesellschaftskreisen, das ein deutscher jüdischer Historiker dagegen verteidigt und begrüßt.

Unter dem Artikel "Circumcision to be considered a crime in Germany?" in der Yediot Acharonot, der israelischen Bildzeitung finden sich aufschlußreiche Kommentare, die für einen Durchschnittsdeutschen, der derartiges Gedankengut zum ersten Mal liest, angesichts ihrer Wirrheit und Abstrusität recht schwer zu verdauen sind. Hier nun einige ausgewählte Kommentare, die man auch selbst unter dem Artikel nachlesen kann:

Radikale verschiedenen Grades (sowohl Israelis als auch eine erhebliche Anzahl offenbar v.a. amerikanischer, aber auch deutscher Kommentatoren) schreiben vielfältige wirre Ansichten:

1.  If not for their Wiedergutmachung Reparation payment to Jews    
the Germans would have faded from the world forever, like the Babylonian, the Persian, the Romans.
Chaim          (06.28.12)

2.  Another law to kill people and extinguishe God.    
Another law to kill people and extinguishe God for our society. God says it is a good thing to circumcise and the German courts know better than God. This will also increase cervical cancer among women. But the doctors and the court do not care about women they care about defying God.
Ted ,      Rochester USA      (06.28.12)

4.  It is more important to obey God and to circumcise the boy    
babies, regardless of the laws of lands. This was not done in ancient Egypt when the Hebrews were slaves there, but General Joshua would not let anyone fight for recapturing Israel without first being circumcised. HaShem would not allow Moses to lead the Hebrews until he and his sons were circumcised even though Moses was eighty at that time.
Rivkah          (06.28.12)

7.  #6 It's (supposedly) a liberal democracy    
So if they decided to gas all German Jews it would still be OK, because it's their country?
The German Basic Law (Art. 4) guarantees freedom of faith and religious practice. The current ruling makes practicing Judaism all but impossible, at least from the moment you get a boy child.
Igor ,      Germany      (06.28.12)

13.  Those "compassionate" Germans who murdered 6 million    
men, women, CHILDREN AND babies have lost their credibility FOREVER until the end of time.

15.  Just what Hitler wrote about circumcision in Mein Kampf         
Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf, "The Jews have inflicted two wounds on mankind - circumcision on its body and conscience on its soul.
Yaniv ,      Israel      (06.28.12)

25.  # 12 Ignorant!    
I feel sorry for you, for you plain stupidity and/or ignorance. You are either one of the self-hated Jews or do not belong to the Jewish people and obviously, you cannot be Muslim either. At least, there is something the Jews and Muslims in diaspora can agree, the importance of ritual animal slaughter and circumcision of newborn males. This ruling of the totally misguided German judge while sitting on his brain, who wants his 15 minutes of fame, will not survive on the appeal.
Anshel ,      Toronto, Canada      (06.28.12)

30.  #22 Tomek: InPoland    
They are opposed to circumcision, but not to beheading of Jews.
Raphael ,      Netanya      (06.28.12)

32.  Axis nazi people    
Have no business telling the rest of the world what to do!!!
HEBREW ,      USA      (06.28.12)

36.  A Lot To do About Nothing             
And what about the mllions of girls who are similarly treated in otherparts of the world, including Africa and Egypt, for starters This is a religious ritual..and has minimal health effects, such as avoiding the risk of genital diseases. The baby has no idea of what is happening..and memories are quickly forgotten. Done properly, its harmless..and a little wine helps.No one is forced (parent) to undergo this and it can be done in a hospital. 100,000 patients die/year in US hospitals..through error, yet are the hospitals being closed? People undergo invasive surgeries al over the planet, often unnecessary..and fa more detrimental than the religious ritual. I'd like to have a dollar for every experiment the Germans did on hapless Jews and others during WW2, they now becoming so concered over Jewish/Muslim precedures. This is an anti-Semetic act, nothing less
and goes deeper than what is the justification. Finally, iif upheld..like abortions, the parents should take a trip outside the country (like to Israel) and have it done. I mean, who notices a mans penis..customarily at age 8 days or 9? Later in life, its not how deep, its how long in the field that matters.
Get my point. Frankly, putting ear rings in a childs ear, is far more dangerous...yet where are the complainers. This is a lot to do about
very little.
Noah Lev ,      LosAngelesUSA      (06.28.12)

45.  arbitrary and rediculous                 
1. Circumcision
While Germany fear for their foreskin they have no trouble to mutilate the genitals of hermaphrodites.
2. Shechtia
Germans insist that animals are stunned before butchered. In practise almost 10% of all pigs slaughtered in Germany are fully awake when they are dumped into boiling water.
In Germany shechtia is considered cruel.
Wherever you look, you find hypocrisy in Germany. They know everything better and they even insist on being right after you proved them wrong.
All this is not about justice!
It's about enforcing their christian-occidental model onto (alien) minorities.
Yael Schlichting ,      Qiryat Motzkin

48.  Most of the 30 tkbkrs here who agree with Germany are GOYIM                  
So who cares what goyim think and do? We, Jews, are different and we are proud of it. We follow G-d's Torah even in Galut Germany proudly, whether the goyim like it or not.

52.  Other fine examples                   
Who in the past forbid circumcision.
Antiochus Epiphanes.
Roman Emperior Constantine.
All the Poops.
Adolph Hitler.
See any pattern there? All you fine examples of humanity that are speaking out against His Word are in fine company.
I bet that gives you a warm fuzzy feeling all over doesn't it Harold?
DavidR ,      USA      (06.28.12)

58.  German Law    
For those of you who do not believe in God please go away. The Germans are rotting themselves out and this is just another step towards their own self-inflicted annihilation! Circumcision has not only religious but medical advantages. For the Christians among you it seem that there is a dilemma because now Mary and Joseph acted illegally. Just think about this when the next ruling says that baptism is morally incorrect!!
David ,      Germany      (06.28.12)

5.  Right to practice Judaism trumps German right to a state.     
The terms of the Allies restoring German independence in 1953, ending the occupation after the war, included eradicating and ending persecution of Jews that was a Nazi hallmark. I am sure that Germans agree that they have to find a way to nullify the dishonest and illegal ruling of this corrupt Cologne court, just as they agree that one Dresden was enough. And for the record, the judge and his Passau law school side-kick were completely mistaken. Jewish practice is not about circumcision, it specifically about circumcizing newborn males on the eighth day of life. Outlawing this outlaws Judaism. And as any doctor will tell you, circumcizing males as adults is a far more serious, dangerous and painful procedure than circumcizing infants, who have undeveloped blood and nerve supply to the foreskin tissues. There is centuries of history that shows infant circumcision to be a safe procedure. These two jackasses were trying to devise a scheme to outlaw and end Judaism, not to merely "move circumcision to adulthood". The basis for the ruling was legally unsould to begin with. I think every German knows that trying to enforce it would trigger all-out war with the world Jewish community, as well as with one billion Muslims. There has not been much reaction so far, because we are all confident Germany will fix this anomaly and remove this inept judge. They had better.
Dr. L. Brnd ,      San Diego, USA      (07.01.12)

Aber es gibt natürlich, wie in jeder Gesellschaft (und Zeitungsleserschaft), so auch in der israelischen humanistische, liberale und kritische Stimmen, die sich gegen derartigen Stumpfsinn zur Wehr setzen:

3.  Mutilating babies for medevil religious beliefs    
And about time too !
Gady ,      Haifa      (06.28.12)

5.  Aaaand let the Nazi references begin in 3... 2... 1...    
It's the Ynet talkbackers, you know it won't be long before they show up.
Moshe ,      Beit Shemesh, Israel      (06.28.12)

6.  Their country    
It is their country and they can make any laws they like.
Anyone who doesn't like the laws is free to move.
israel israeli ,      tel aviv      (06.28.12)

10.  #4    
yeah, because god cares so much about how much skin is on a penis.
get real.
jj          (06.28.12)

11.   very wise!!! pure humanism!!  (End)    
Moshe ,      Tel Aviv      (06.28.12)

12.  Great ruling! Finaly the human species grow up!    
Away from a simpleminded praying primate to a smarter species respecting and recognizing the reality and stop believe in their own human-made long-outdated fairy tales!
Neo ,      EU      (06.28.12)

14.  #2 God         
Maybe God should tell the court in Cologne what he thinks about it.
Anyway the Torah (by the way written by human beeings) also says to stone people who collect wood on a Saturday or betray their husband.
Martin          (06.28.12)

17.  Enslaving boys for life against their will is despicable.    
This irreversible custom should be abolished. Of course, if desired by the boy himself, it is acceptable at an age when the boy can give his consent and under a proper medical supervision. The German court is correct, as are American courts which supported not once stopping circumcision.
A separate question is why was circumcision introduced in the first place? Religion is a form of enslavement and priests always feared independent people will be escaping them and what they preached. Therefore, they introduced circumcision to tie people to themselves for life, to make them slaves to themselves.
Michael ,      California, USA      (06.28.12)

18.  Let's see what the European Court will decide.    
Before we start yelling Antisemitism, Nazis and so on, I am sure that the German Jewish Community will take this to a higher court and eventually to the European Court of Human Rights.
Those who are already burning the German flag should remember that some local authorities in the Great State of California did the same and were only blocked by Gov. Jerry Brown.
What shocks me is that a four year of was circumcised and some tribes in Africa do it at thirteen. Ouch!
I grew up in South Africa where is was the norm to be circumcised even by non Jews. Health reasons and cleanliness seemed to rule and many feel it does leave a clear head for business.
David ,      Karmiel, Israel      (06.28.12)

19.  Good    
Finally a western court has declared it illegal to mutilate children. It shouldn't be an excuse that you're stupid (religious) to harm your kids.
Intedi Nensak ,      Stockholm, Sweden 

21.  Thanks to the hareidi behaviour    
who refuse to integrate in the Israeli society , who do not oppose extremists , seculars will agree with this decision , anywhere in the world . Extremism brings extremism .
Charles ,      Petach Tikva      (06.28.12)

22.  The court stated the obvious    
non-medical circumcision IS serious interference in human body's integrity. It would be disingenuous to claim otherwise. The same is true about medical circumcision but at lest this one can be rationalized.
Tomek ,      Poland      (06.28.12)

23.  Stop this barberic, stane age practice    
Taking a knife to babys sexual organs. What parents in their right minds torture their children to satisfy their religious fancy. The same "doctors" that mutilate girls mutilate also boys. Send them to jail and throw away the key.
penny lane          (06.28.12)

28.  Can't help but agree    
There's religious freedom of the parents, but then there's religious freedom (or freedom from religion) of the child.
Why should parents have the right to dictate religion to their children? What about the child's religious freedom?
Northern          (06.28.12)

39.  Norther # 28    
When the child grows up he can decide if he wants to remain a Jew. The child can convert to any other religion he chooses.
Arnold ,      Canada      (06.28.12)

9.  #5 San Diego, Many fine Jews live without circumcision.
Tell ya a big secret, doctor: Jewishness is in culture, in person's brain and soul; not in a foreskin, not in genes, not in religion. Many children born in the 1940's from Jewish parents in Europe have not been circumcised due to the war, and in order to improve their survival chances. They live today in the U.S., in Israel, in many European countries also. Before that, children from Jewish parents who escaped from Red Russia to China have also avoided circumcision. They live today all over the world.

A piece of skin,
on or off the pin,
does not set your kin,
gam im harofe lo mevin.
Michael ,      California, USA      (07.01.12)

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